Religion and Science

Transcript of an interview by Steve Inskeep of NPR Radio with physicist and Nobel Prize laureate Dr. Charles Townes, March 10, 2005

Steve Inskeep: Even as some Americans debate teaching evolution or creationism in schools, one scientist says religion and science do not have to disagree. Charles Townes is a Nobel Prize winner and co-inventor of the laser, and in 1966, he wrote that religion and science should converge. Yesterday, he was awarded $1.5 million, the annual Templeton Prize, for work in the field of religion.

Charles Townes: Let's consider what religion is. Religion is an attempt to understand the purpose and meaning of our universe. What is science? It's an attempt to understand how our universe works. Well, if there's a purpose and meaning, that must have something to do with how it works. So those two must be related. In addition, we use all of our human abilities to understand both. Science has faith. We call them postulates and we believe in them but we can't prove them. And sometimes these postulates are wrong. For example, most scientists in the past thought, well, the universe could not have had a beginning. It had to always be here, always be the same; Einstein felt that very strongly. And now scientists discovered, yes, there was a beginning to our universe, of all things.

SI: You also write about the fact that it's presumed that religious knowledge is revealed as opposed to unearthed in an experiment. Scientific knowledge, you think, is sometimes revealed in a similar process.

CT: Yes. I think there are even revelations in science. We don't generally call them that, but as I think of my own recognition of how to amplify light and microwaves, discovery of the maser and the laser, I'd been working on this some time. I sat on a park bench and thought and suddenly I had the idea. A lot of it was a revelation. I say it's a little bit like Moses wondering about how to help his people and so on. Then in front of a burning bush one time, he suddenly said, "This is what ought to be done."

SI: As you've been trying to figure out the way the universe works, do you find yourself sometimes wondering about the nature of G‑d?

CT: Yes, certainly. I have a very personal feeling that, yes, there's a spiritual being there and it interacts with me and that's important for me and so on. On the other hand, exactly what it is, I don't know. I don't picture him as some old man with a long white beard. I can't describe it. I don't think anyone can appropriately.

SI: In this famous essay, Charles Townes, in 1966, you wrote that science and religion should at some time clearly converge. It's been almost 40 years since you wrote that.

CT: Yes.

SI: Seen much sign of convergence?

CT: I think there has been, yes. Within the last few decades in particular, I think more and more science has noted the really very special nature of our universe. The laws of physics have to be certain particular ways in order for us to be here at all. And if it changed just a little bit, then we couldn't be here. Unfortunately, if we start labeling that intelligent design, then that kind of a label is just fundamentalist or something like that, but many scientists recognize, "Well, gee, maybe there's been some systematic thing here that's been affecting us and planned and so on," and it is very suggestive.

SI: If we were just going to give a thumbnail definition of intelligent design, we might say it's the idea that the universe is so complicated that somebody must have designed it, it couldn't have happened by chance.

CT: It's not just that it's complicated, but, in fact, that it comes out in just such a way that we can be here.

SI: It sounds like you're deeply skeptical of the debate over intelligent design as it's been presented in the public. But when it gets right down to the way that things have worked out, you really are filled with a sense of wonder.

CT: There is a sense of wonder, and it's very peculiar that we come out this very special way and what did it. And maybe there was something that kept directing us or planned it or something, and that's very striking. And many scientists are impressed with that now.

SI: Charles H. Townes, congratulations, and thanks very much.

CT: Thank you.

How Scientific is Torah?

So we hear all the time about how Torah and science don't really contradict. But can you give me at least one or two examples where they actually coincide?

• The most outstanding example: For millennia, we were ridiculed for believingthe world began. Only in the latter half of the 20th century did the evidence come out overwhelmingly on our side. As Dr. Arno Penzias (one of the three who received a Nobel Prize for identifying the "background radiation" that became one of the pillars of the current Big Bang cosmology) writes, "creation is supported by all the data so far."1
• Abraham was a maverick for believing that all the forces of the cosmos are really a single force. This is the contention of science for the past 100 years and the driving force behind the search for the Unified Field Theory.2
• The Torah's account of Creation and of events that defy the laws of physics -- and even defy logic -- implies that the laws of logic are not absolute -- i.e. it is not impossible for those laws to have been created otherwise, and even now, the Creator could adjust them or supersede them at whim. An inkling of this kind of thinking opened the way for modern mathematics, breaking away from the Euclidian view that the axioms of geometry are absolute "self evident truths," and laying the ground for Einstein's relativity. Indeed, later attempts to demonstrate that mathematics is based on logic have all failed. Thinkers today question the absoluteness of logic itself.3
• Torah, by presenting the concept of Divine Providence within nature, requires a universe that is only loosely linear, rejecting the determinist concept that cause and effect are inherently linked. This is an outcome of the Principle of Uncertainty, first enunciated by Heisenberg in 1928.4 Over the past 30 years, experimentation has repeatedly affirmed this concept.
• Torah does not talk in terms of matter as a self-contained substance, but as an event, a 'word'. Today we understand matter as simply a dynamic of concentrated energy, as in the familiar formula E=mc2. Or, in physicist David Bohm's definition, "That which unfolds, whatever the medium."5
• Torah relies on witnesses and observation over intuition. Today we call this objective empiricism. It is what distinguishes the scientist from the Hellenist or medieval philosopher.
• Torah recognizes the role of human consciousness as an active, rather than passive, participant in forming reality.6 This outcome of the standard model of quantum mechanics was first enunciated by John von Neumann in 1932.7
• Torah consistently relies on the concept of synergy: The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. This has become an essential principle in many modern disciplines, from sociology to chemistry.
• Torah, in many halachic applications, relies on "quantum" -- smallest possible increments of change within space and time. This was the postulate of Max Planck that opened the field of quantum mechanics.
• The Torah describes all of humankind as descending from a single man and -- earlier -- a single woman.8 The overwhelming genetic evidence concurs, although the dating is still somewhat skewed. They're still catching up.
• Torah understands the human psyche as being multi-layered and multifaceted -- there isn't just one person inside. Welcome to modern psychology.
• Torah describes planet earth and the entire cosmos in holistic terms. Science today is moving sharply in this direction, in life sciences and in physics and cosmology.
• Torah provides inference to many of the customs, beliefs, politics, technologies, etc. of ancient times at which historians once balked and archeologists have only recently confirmed.
• Torah presents and rigorously develops the chazakah: An event must occur repeatedly under identical conditions to be considered the most likely outcome in the future (such as the case of the consistently goring ox). This is the basis of the scientific method.9
• Torah prescribes public education, popular involvement and constitutional governance. Sociologists describe how these elements generate stability and productivity in a society.
• Torah prescribes a responsible stewardship of our environment. Today we have demonstrated that such an approach is the only one possible for sustainable life on the planet.

Freedom of Choice: Natural or Supernatural?

See, I set before you today blessing and curse. The blessing, that you will heed the commandments of the L‑rd your G‑d. . . . And the curse, if you will not heed the commandments . . .

Deuteronomy 11:26–28

Freedom of choice is one of the core principles of our religion, and indeed every judicial system is predicated on the idea of free choice. A robot or computer is not rewarded for executing a noble mission, nor does it deserve punishment for doing an immoral task. We don’t have prisons where we store computers which have spread viruses; all credit or blame belongs to the programmers.

If man were also a robot with no ability to freely choose, then he too wouldn’t be liable for punishment. Certainly, the most violent elements of society would still have to be restrained in some sort of correctional facility—not because they can be blamed for their behavior, but to protect the rest of the population, much as wild predators must be kept away from society—but one couldn’t blame them for their acts, just as one cannot condemn the lion or eagle for their predatory natures, or give credit to the dolphin for its friendly disposition.

The Today we are told that almost any harmful behavior can be blamed on geneticsfact that we do penalize criminals—and this has always been the accepted method of dealing with criminals, by all civilizations throughout history—shows that society has always recognized that the human being possesses the intuition to distinguish between right and wrong and has the ability to choose between the two, and is therefore responsible for whichever choice he makes.

But is this factually correct? Does the human being really enjoy freedom of choice? Is there really a difference between the human and all other creatures which G‑d created, which are bound by their G‑d-given nature—for better or worse?

Today we are told that almost any harmful behavior can be blamed on genetics. Or, if a gene isn’t at fault, then it must be a traumatic childhood experience. Perhaps he lost a loved one in his youth, was abused by his parents, comes from a dysfunctional family or didn’t receive enough positive attention from his teacher. If none of these factors explain the person’s destructive conduct, that only means that he can’t afford a top-rate psychologist—one who can make a better diagnosis, and explain why he really isn’t to be blamed . . .

This is why G‑d declares, “See, I set before you today blessing and curse.” Indeed, freedom of choice isn’t a quality which is natural to the human being; naturally, the human should be compelled to behave according to his nature—a nature which is formed by a combination of genetics and life experiences. But G‑d tells every person, “No matter your nature, upbringing and intelligence, no matter how many hard knocks you may have experienced, I guarantee you the ability to be a saint like Moses.” And the same is also true in reverse: even one who has been raised by righteous parents, and is naturally disposed to doing that which is right, has the ability to choose evil and stray from G‑d’s ways.

One should never think that he can never be a spiritual person, that “it’s not within my nature.” A person’s nature is a merely a challenge which G‑d guarantees that he or she can overcome.

Talking with G-d

Generally, we use our verbal skills to communicate our needs to others, or to respond to others' needs. There is usually a utilitarian goal in mind -- a piece of information we wish to hear, or a request we would like to convey.

But these conversations, as important as they may be, do not do justice to the true power of speech. Speaking serves another, much more potent purpose when the conversation itself, and the connection it creates between people, is the objective. Friends will pick up a phone and call each other simply to keep in touch. The topics discussed are not as significant as the conversation itselfChildren call their parents, sometimes for a purpose (financial requests are high on the list of "purposes") -- but usually the point of the conversation is just to touch base. A couple newly in love will spend endless hours talking about nothing, anything, and everything. With the advent of Instant Messaging, these conversations often continue through the workday as well (much to the consternation of many an employer). And just as the chat seems to be coming to an end, one of the parties will invariably find yet another "pressing" topic to discuss. Neither wishes to break the bond created by the conversation; neither wants to say "good bye."

Here we have a classic case of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts: the topics discussed are not as significant as the conversation itself.

The above also applies to our daily "conversations" with G‑d -- a.k.a. "prayer". Prayer comes naturally when a person, G‑d forbid, experiences hardships. But passionate prayer when all is (relatively) well is, in a certain sense, a far more meaningful experience. Because our conversations with G‑d serve a dual purpose: they are an opportunity to beseech our Provider for health, prosperity and nachas from our children; but more importantly, they are also moments when we connect with our beloved Father in Heaven. Indeed, to a certain extent, the content of our prayers is less significant than the experience itself--an opportunity to connect with G‑d.

You have His attention; speak as long as you wish! The great sage Rabbi Yochanan summed it up with these words: "If only a person could pray all day long!"

Israel’s Return -​A Timely Study For Both Jews And Gentiles

​• DO YOU KNOW: That Israel was God's first chosen people (Deut. 7:6; Psa. 135:4; 147:19, 20; Amos 3:2)?
 

• That when in Eden God justly sentenced His disobedient children to death (Gen. 2:17; Ezek. 18:4, 20), He graciously intimated that ultimately the Seed of the woman would bruise the Serpent's head (Gen. 3:15)?
 
• That later God promised Abraham that his Seed would be multiplied greatly (Gen. 15:5; 17:4, 7, 16), and that in him and his Seed all the families of the earth would be blessed (Gen. 12:3; 22:18)?
 
• That after God had tested Abraham's faith and loyalty, He confirmed the Covenant with an oath (Gen. 22:16-18), reaffirmed it to Isaac and Jacob (Gen. 26:24; 28:14), and established it with Israel for "an everlasting covenant" (Gen. 17:7; Psa. 105:6-10)?
 
•That God promised Israel blessings if they would obey His Law, and threatened them with punishments if they would disobey it (Deut. 28:1-68), and that for centuries they received such blessings and punishments?
 
• That additionally God threatened Israel four times (Lev. 26:18, 21, 24, 28) with a final punishment of "seven times" at the hands of the nations (Gentiles), among whom He would scatter them (Lev. 26:33-45), if despite previous punishments they would continue to walk contrary to His Law?
 
• That the Scriptures use the word "time" prophetically to indicate a literal year or a symbolic year (Dan. 4:16, 23, 25, 32; 7:25; Dan. 11:13 (ASV); 12:7)?
 
• That in prophetic Scriptures a day sometimes represents a year, and a week seven years (Num. 14:34; Ezek. 4:4-6; Dan. 9:24-27)?
 
• That the threatened "seven times" of punishment upon Israel have been fulfilled, not as seven literal times, or years (for their earlier punishments had often lasted longer than seven literal years), but, in harmony with Scriptural usage elsewhere, as seven symbolic times, or years, i.e., seven periods of 360 years each, making 2520 (7 x 360 = 2520) years?
 
• DO YOU KNOW: That these 2520 years of Gentile dominion over and punishment of the Jews began in 607 B.C. (606¼ years B.C.), when Nebuchadnezzar overthrew Zedekiah, Judah's last king, and desolated the land, and ended in the Fall of 1914 (1913¾ years A.D.), when by the World War God began to dispossess the Gentile powers in the great Time of Trouble (Dan. 12:1; Psa. 46:6-10; 110:2, 5, 6; Joel 2:1, 2; Zeph. 1:18; 3:8)?
 
• That God fulfilled these "seven times" to the day: on the tenth day of the fifth lunar month in 607 B.C. the temple, king's house, etc., in Jerusalem were fired by the Babylonians (Jer. 52:12, 13), and exactly 2520 years later on the tenth day of the fifth lunar month the World War began, viz., on Aug. 1, 1914?
 
• That by the image in Nebuchadnezzar's dream (Dan. 2:31-45) God pictured the four universal empires of the Gentiles: the head of gold—Babylon; the breast and arms of silver—Medo-Persia; the belly and thighs of brass—the Grecian empire; the legs of iron—the Roman Empire (Eastern and Western), the feet and toes of iron mixed with clay representing the present mixture of civil governments (iron) and Churchianity (clay) in Europe's ten language nations?
 
• That the stone smiting the image on its feet and breaking it into pieces represents God's real Kingdom smiting the mixed governmental and ecclesiastical powers posing as God's Kingdom (even as an iron and clay mixture resembles stone) in this great "time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation" (Dan. 12:1), and dashing them into pieces (Psa. 2:9), prior to filling the earth (Dan. 2:34, 35, 44)?
 
• That the Jews were to be trodden down of the Gentiles only until the "seven times" (2520 years), the "times of the Gentiles," would be fulfilled, which fulfilment occurred in 1914, when the World War broke out between the Gentile powers, and that since then God has remarkably prospered their return to His favor and to Palestine as their National Home?
 
• That the Jews' sufferings since 1914 are not a part of their special 2520 years' punishment, but are sufferings for sins as humans, which both Jews and Gentiles experience since 1914, in the great Time of Trouble (Dan. 12:1), and sufferings as a part of Phase I of "Jacob's trouble" (Jer. 30:5-11), which roots them up elsewhere to cause them to return to Palestine?
 
• DO YOU KNOW: That though Israel in 607 B.C. began to suffer the 2520 years' punishment, they as a nation were not finally destroyed until over 600 years later, and that the desolation of their land and cities, and their dispersion throughout the Gospel Age in many lands, is forecast in many Scriptures (e.g., Lev. 26:31-39; Deut. 29:22-28; Isa. 17:4-6; 43:5, 6; Jer. 4:20, 26-29; 12:4, 7-13; 16:13-18; 19:7-9; 29:14, 17, 18; 30:11; 32:36, 37; Amos 3:14; 5:3, 5; 7:8, 9)?
 
• That Israel's preservation as a separate people while dispersed among all nations (Hos. 3:4, 5) is one of the miracles of history?
 
• That Israel's return to their land and God's favor is also prophesied (e.g., Lev. 26:40-45; Psa. 22:23-31; 102:13-28; Isa. 2:2, 3; 14:1; 40:1, 2; Jer. 23:5-8; 24:6; 30:7-11, 18-24; 31:8-12; 33:7, 10, 11; Ezek. 16:53-55, 60-63; 36:1-15, 24-38; 37:1-28; Hos. 3:4, 5; Joel 3:1, 2, 17-21; Amos 9:14, 15; Zeph. 3:10-20; Zech. 8:1-23)?
 
• That the "double" of Isa. 40:2; Zech. 9:12 refers to the Gospel Age as a counterpart, or parallel, of the Jewish Age; also, that Jer. 16:18 states that Israel's punishment would be a "double" (Hebrew, mishneh—a period of disfavor during the Gospel Age equal to their period of favor during the Jewish Age—they to be without God's special favor again (v. 13) until its end?
 
• That this double has been fulfilled, that Israel's "appointed time [see margin] is accomplished," that God's Word indicates that now is the time to preach comfort to, and God's forgiveness of, Israel, and that God exhorts us to do so (Isa. 40:1, 2)?
 
• That the "fishers" of Jer. 16:16 are those who hold forth to Israel the attractive bait of Zionism, while the "hunters" are Israel's persecutors and tormentors, and that God has used both of these instru­mentalities to help bring Israel back to Palestine as their homeland?
 
• That shortly after the Berlin Congress of Nations met in 1878 and removed the barriers on the Israelites' return to and stay in Palestine, they began increasingly to return, and that this was given an impetus by the Zionist movement, especially in the 1890's along political lines, and in 1910 along religious lines?
 
• DO YOU KNOW: That one of the objects of the Allies in the World War was to establish in Palestine a national home for the Jews, and that the Balfour declaration of 1917 pledged Britain to this end, it being favored by America also?
 
• That increasing numbers of Jews have returned to their land, especially since the State of Israel was set up in 1948, with the population growing from less than 50,000 Jews in 1914 to over 8,000,000 now?
 
• That God foretold that Israel would return nationally before they recognize the Messiah, before His Kingdom on earth is set up, and the New Covenant is made with them (Ezek. 37:21-28; Zech. 12:10; Jer. 31:23-34)?
 
• That Israel's return to their land and to God's favor are preludes of Millennial blessings upon them, and through them upon all nations (Jer. 31:5-34; Ezek. 16:44-63; 36:21-38; Amos 9:11-15; Micah 4:1-4; Zech. 8:20-23; 14:16-21)?

 
• That you will be blessed if you love and favor Abraham's Seed (Gen. 12:3; 27:29; Num. 24:9; Zech. 8:23), for the time to favor Israel, yea, the set time, has come (Psa. 102:13), that God now bids us to speak a message of comfort to the Jews (Isa. 40:1, 2), and that we will be glad to have you join us in this blessed work of preaching the Kingdom?